RJon Robins has focused on legal marketing from nearly every conceivable perspective. He started his career as a solo practitioner right out of law school. He then was a Practice Management Advisor with The Florida Bar’s Law Office Management Assistance Service, helping other attorneys grow their practices. He is now a marketing consultant who develops self-coaching systems, e-books, audio programs, and teleseminars for solos and attorneys in small firms.
A frequent contributor in the comments section here at lawfirmblogging.com, I asked Mr. Robins if he’d like to do a short interview. The results follow.
LawFirmBlogging: I’ve listened to your audio programs and know that you opened your own firm right after law school. Are you still actively practicing law?
Mr. Robins: I still have a handful of legal clients whose businesses and/or goals I know too well to refer them to other lawyers. And I still get lots of calls from former clients and even people who were never clients looking for referrals to other lawyers, accountants, etc. but I’m no longer actively marketing my law practice.
LawFirmBlogging: You say that law schools do not adequately teach law firm management and marketing skills. Why do you think that is the case?
Mr. Robins: The evidence upon which I base my statement is the fact that only a handful of law schools offer even a single course on law firm management or marketing. This is despite the fact that they know, or should know, that statistically-speaking the vast majority of their graduates are going to end up running their own law firms someday.
What do I think causes most law schools not to include these subjects? Well, think about it for a second. . .law professors are, for the most part, either, Former practicing lawyers; Actively practicing lawyers; or Law school graduates who for any number of reasons chose not to practice law. In each scenario, the law school professor is teaching what he or she learned when they were in law school. So it’s an incestuous cycle. Of course there are exceptions, but unfortunately for the legal profession and everyone who has ever struggled to manage or market his or her own law firm business, the exceptions seem to be few & far between.
LawFirmBlogging: So, how did you learn the right techniques?
Mr. Robins: I was lucky in three ways:
First of all, I grew up in a business family. Some families talk politics around the dinner table. For others it’s sports. Mine has always talked business. So I went to law school with a pretty clear understanding of the distinction between what it means to work for a business vs. having the business work for you.
Second, my law school was one of the few that actually offered a course on law firm management. Back then it was a non-credit course offered only at night and I think we had to bribe the custodial crew to leave the lights on for us. But we had a professor who volunteered - she wasn’t even being paid for the extra teaching load - who described her first job out of law school as being a managing associate. The way she describes it, even though she was only the associate, as soon as the owners of the firm realized she had an interest & some management skills, they pretty much let her call the shots on how to run the business part of the law firm. By the way, I’m very proud to say that my alma mater has invited me back for the winter term to teach a full credit, semester-long course on small law firm management & marketing during daylight hours!
Third, despite having known better, I still mixed-up the job of being a lawyer with the responsibilities of owning a law firm business and managed to make just about every mistake in the book when first I hung out my own shingle right out of law school. Fortunately, The Florida Bar has a great resource called The Law Office Management Assistance Service and I guess I must have been a pretty heavy user & b/c they eventually offered me a job once they saw that I was actually getting great results with the advice they were giving me. Being a Practice Management Advisor with The Florida Bar is really where I got the most experience.
LawFirmBlogging: One of the biggest gripes I have with marketing books and speakers is that they will often try to make their material very generic; kind of a one-size-fits all approach. In doing so, they never give specific, useful techniques that can be employed right away.
With that said, are there certain practice areas that are better suited for the skills you teach?
Mr. Robins: I wouldn’t say there are certain practice areas that are necessarily better suited for the skills I teach. What I teach is basic-to-moderately-advanced law firm marketing and management skills. I’d say that my sweet spot has less to do with any particular practice area, and more to do with the size of a law firm business a lawyer practices in.
The vast majority of my experience has been with small law firms. I have helped lawyers get great results with my systems, skills & techniques in all kinds of practice areas, but almost exclusively with small law firms.
I suppose there could be some practice areas that you’d only find in larger firms that I’ve never run across where my skills would not be well suited. And I wouldn’t presume to advise anyone about the in’s & out’s of technology or web site design. Just fundamental marketing & management skills for small firms. But you’d be surprised how far you can grow a law firm with the fundamentals!
LawFirmBlogging: On your website and printed materials, your tagline says “Helping small law firms make a lot more money.” What’s your definition of “small” and “a lot”?
Mr. Robins: It’s funny that you ask. I’m actually having an e-mail correspondence with a fellow consultant about where to draw the line for a small law firm. I consider any firm with five attorneys or fewer to be a small firm, and that’s the part of the market where I have the most experience. The ABA & most other consultants consider anything under 20 lawyers to be small, but I don’t think that a lawyer sitting in an office by him or herself or even with a couple of partners or associates has much in common with the day-to-day experience of someone in a 10 lawyer firm with a full-time administrator and a comparatively substantial marketing budget.
A lot is a relative term. If your best year ever was only $75,000 in revenues and I can help you break the six-figure mark, then the extra $25,000 is a lot to you. I’ve also helped lawyers go from taking home a hundred thousand dollars, to taking home two and three hundred thousand dollars. So it all depends on what your goals are, and what you’re willing to do with the skills and systems I can expose you to.
I should also mention that some of my most satisfied clients aren’t necessarily taking home that much more money than they were before they met me. . .just working a lot less hours to maintain the level of income they need to support the lifestyle their families have come to expect. So I suppose if I help you take home the same $200,000 you did last year, but now you get to attend your kids’ school events and have a life, that also qualifies as a lot more money relative to the amount hours in the office.
LawFirmBlogging: I’ve read the articles from your free ezine, and there seem to be some common problems that many new solos face. What do you see as the most common, yet solvable issue facing the new attorney?
Mr. Robins: I was having this very conversation yesterday with a new attorney. Without a doubt, the two biggest problems that many lawyers who are new to small practices face are:
- Not exercising the discipline to narrow their practices to just one or two complimentary areas so they can make a name for themselves as the go-to-lawyer for X and achieve operational efficiency in that practice area; and
- Listening to bad advice about the need to pay your dues, usually from more senior attorneys who are only too happy to eliminate the competition or justify why they themselves aren’t more successful in the business of running a law firm.
LawFirmBlogging: This site being lawfirmblogging.com, it’s pretty obvious that I’m a believer when it comes to using the internet and blogs for legal marketing purposes. What’s your position on legal blogs and web sites?
Mr. Robins: I have to admit, I am pretty new to the world of blogging and I’m even relatively new to web marketing, so excuse me if I seem a little simplistic. The way I think of it a website and/or a blog is just another channel you can use to communicate with your prospects and clients. And as communication channels go, blogs & website are very efficient so I take a very pro position on them if used the right way. But too many lawyers seem to use their websites and blogs as if they are just complying with some unwritten rule that you must have a web presence. I think a lot of law firms would be a lot better off if they just scrapped their web sites altogether and invested all their blogging time on more productive activities, like coming up with an actual strategic plan for how they want to position themselves to the market in the first place.
On the other hand, there are some lawyers who seem to really get how to use a website and a blog to deliver more value to their clients and prospects. They use the web site to offer tons of free resources and other useful information that legitimately helps to educate prospects about what to look for in a lawyer, how to do a preliminary evaluation of their own case, and even how to solve some basic legal problems without even using a lawyer. After all, if someone has a problem that simple, why not just tell them the answer instead of dragging it out? But those sites also include a mechanism to capture information and get permission to stay in contact, so that the technology can be used to maintain top of mind awareness until the prospect reaches the end of the buying cycle and they’re ready to hire a lawyer.
Even more impressive to me are the law firm websites that are geared to improve the experience of current and even former clients: Intranets; Weekly client status e-mail updates; and websites that provide holistic information beyond just the boundaries of the client’s legal needs or firm specialties. And there’s no rule that says each law firm is only allowed to have one website. Trash all the flash motion graphics and give me a site specifically geared to me if I’m thinking about hiring a lawyer, and another that addresses my concerns once I become a client. The first family law practice that offers a virtual filing cabinet for current & past clients is going to make a killing!
LawFirmBlogging: Marketing a solo practice differs from marketing a firm. In many cases a solo attorney does not have the budget, time, and resources to dedicate to traditional marketing activities. Or at least that’s the perception. So how can a solo make the most of their marketing time?
Mr. Robins: First of all, if by traditional marketing activities, you mean things like brand-building advertising that doesn’t create a compelling reason for a prospective new client to pick up the phone & call or raise his/her hand and ask for some free information, then I need to make it clear that in my experience, solos and small law firms shouldn’t even be trying to duplicate the traditional marketing activities of larger firms. Large firms have legitimate reasons for doing some things with their marketing dollars that are completely inappropriate for a small law firm.
But to answer your question, the most effective use of time for a solo practitioner or a lawyer in a small firm with limited resources is to make Sales Calls, because that’s the only time & place where you can actually get a new client or cultivate a new referral source. And by Sales Call, I mean when you sit down or have a conversation with someone to identify the highest priority need or opportunity they are trying to deal with, and demonstrate in a systematic and organized way how you can help them find a solution to that problem or opportunity. Everything else we do is either a lead-up or else it’s a stall-tactic to avoid making the Sales Call.
LawFirmBlogging: I’ve listened to several of your audio programs while driving, and must admit that it made me feel a little sense of accomplishment to learn while stuck in traffic rather than just swearing under my breath at the driver in front of me. Having an audio CD is a nice alternative, but I was wondering why you decided to make CDs rather than just books.
Mr. Robins: When I was in law school I discovered the course review programs on tapes - I didn’t even have a CD player back then. I figured-out that if I listened to the course reviews before the semester began, then I could always stay a step-ahead of where the professor was leading the class. To this day, I still think of the benefits of establishing yourself as a Holder In Due Course, every time I drive by the spot on Biscayne Blvd in downtown Miami where I first got that concept while listening to the negotiable instruments course review program in my car. And every time I need to recall the concept, I still get a flash of that intersection in my mind.
Later, when I was working as a Practice Management Advisor with The Florida Bar’s Law Office Management Assistance Service logging around 4,000 miles-a-month on my car doing onsite consultations with small law firms, I rediscovered audio books - by then of course I did have a CD player in my car. I would go to do speeches and workshops all over the State and lawyers and legal administrators in the audience would always be so impressed that I had read the latest books or reports on all kinds of different subjects. My secret was that I subscribed to Business Audio Briefings and spent the hours in the car learning instead of just listening to the radio.
So when I was trying to figure-out how to deliver the most value to lawyers in small firms and teach them how to have more fun and spend less time in the office, I figured that it would be pretty hypocritical of me to ask them to spend that free time reading a book. Believe me, producing a high-quality audio program is about ten times harder than just writing a book, but so far, people seem to appreciate the extra effort.
LawFirmBlogging: Rather than just harping on legal marketing questions, I’ve got to finish this interview with something a little bit off topic:
Apparently you really dislike traveling. In fact, on your bio it says:
After living out of a suitcase for several years, Robins now lives and works on Miami Beach where he enjoys boating and scrap metal sculpting instead of travel. Why do you dislike travel so much, and how did you get into scrap metal sculpting?
Mr. Robins: Well like I said before I used to log around 4,000 miles on my car each month & then later when I went into private consulting I used to live on an airplane & in hotel rooms. It was exciting for awhile but being away from your family & friends 3/4 of the time gets old after too many years.
Scrap metal sculpting - ok, here’s the story. . . I used to come home from work or home from a trip exhausted but exhilarated from all the lawyers I had helped in so many meaningful ways that were highly personal to them & me. But then my family would ask how my day or trip had been & it was literally too exhausting to recount every nuance & detail of what I had accomplished, and besides, a lot of it was confidential. So I’d usually just end up brushing-off the question with some kind of lame answer. That started to isolate & frustrate me, so I started looking for how I could express my creativity in a way that I could share with friends & family, and especially without having to explain a lot of things. I had a friend who was into welding & one thing led to another. You can see some of my sculptures for sale at www.RJONROBINS.com
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